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RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

mrocco1 — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 08:01:57 GMT

If you start thinking early in the interview that you are supposed to discuss salary and compensation in any detail, you run a TERRIBLE risk of being perceived as focusing too much on what you're going to GET rather than on what you're going to GIVE. What do I do if they ask what salary I am expecting? You state your salary expectations directly and specifically. If you give a range, make it no more than 8 ‐ 10% of the mean of the range. Be very careful not to throw out a total compensation number when what they ask you for is salary. If you don't have an offer yet, then the interview is still going on!

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Eric M Russell — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 07:30:19 GMT

Wether it's appropriate to bring up salary during an interview depends on what type of interview it is. If it's just a technical interview where you're sitting across the table from the manager and a couple of team members, then you'd look like a total dork to broach the subject with them, especially if they've already made up their mind you're no longer a good candidate. When you're in the one on one meeting with the human resources director, this would be the meeting where they tell you about the company's benefits package, corporate culture, etc., then that's when it's time to talk specifics about the salary. If you're patient, then they should bring it up themselves. If you jump in too soon and ask point blank, then it will appear you're not a good listener or don't care about the company's line of business.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

grahamc — Tue, 30 Nov 2010 04:19:37 GMT

I always know the salary or at least range, before going for an interview. As a contractor in the UK/Switzerland, taking a day off (or even half a day) means that I dont get paid, so therefore lose money. I deal only with agents, unless I know the company. Its an added layer of protection... they have "standard" contracts and you do all the negotiating through them. Yes they are very much like 2nd hand car salesmen, but that means that you can be rather "under-handed" with them and you do not need to work with them on a daily basis. For some permanent positions, I have been a little less willing to push the issue, even though I knew I should be on more. Dealing with agents, I just dont care... If I dont get the £££s I want, I leave, which means no more "money-cow" for them.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

jmonk 57451 — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 15:09:17 GMT

Money is a basic staple of the reason for the interview. For some it is of utmost import while for others it is a secondary thought. Regardless, the time spent by both interviewer and interviewee is valuable and should not be wasted because HR is too sheepish to perform their due diligence. I think the HR pre-screen should present the salary range and present the candidate with the information to determine if they wish to proceed or not. If HR hasn't done at least that much, I wouldn't even set up the interview until they have.Then, if a formal interview is conducted, I'd bring it up again at the conclusion. This gives you a good feel for how important the subject is to your candidate and whether they are seriously entertaining your proposed salary range. Once the cards are on the table it is no longer such a difficult subject to tackle, for either party.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Jack Corbett — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:12:27 GMT

This is a great editorial question. I was taught that the first one to mention money in an interview loses. I don't know that I totally agree with that statement.There is lots of good advice in the comments here as well and I'll echo a few:1. Know what your skills are worth in that particular geographic area and industry. Expect less from non-profit, government, and smaller companies.2. If you have to mention what you are expecting use a broad ranges. I'd add that you should also frame it in terms of total compensation, not salary.3. Don't be afraid to ask about the salary range, but also about benefits (health insurance, retirement, etc...). In some cases you may be better off taking a smaller salary for better benefits. Whether I ask or not depends on my situation. If I'm unemployed and need to pay the bills I may ask just to have an idea, but I'm unlikely to turn down the job unless there are other things about the position that I don't like. If I'm employed and looking for an upgrade, I may let them know that we aren't a match as far as compensation goes and that I don't think we need to go any further in the process.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Matt Miller (#4) — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 14:04:44 GMT

[quote][b]Tim Mitchell (11/28/2010)[/b][hr]I'm in favor of talking about salary ranges early on, preferably before either party has spent significant time in the process (for example, during the initial phone screening). That being said, when asked about salary expectations, as a candidate I try to keep the range as wide as possible, because there's more to the job than how much is in your pay envelope. For example, a $100k job that requires an hour commute every day is not the same as a $100k job that's six blocks away (or six seconds away, for WFH positions).But to Jeff's point earlier, in *most* cases there is no harm in interviewing for a position you're unlikely to accept. It keeps you in practice as an interviewee, and a good interview that doesn't immediately result in an offer could plant a seed for something in the future.[/quote]I've been nicely surprised once or twice with "filler interviews" at the right companies. My current position resulted from one such interview: I interviewed for a decdedly short-term spot for me, which transformed into a decidedly different opportunity while I was talking to the dev manager.Speaking of quality companies, this in my mind flows over to contracting organizations as well. I've encountered my fair share of snake oil salespeople from placement firms, but there are quality companies out there. Frankly, the meat market firms get away with their poor treatment because we *let* them: accepting shoddy (public) placements with poor support during the job followed by substandard understanding of your inidividual needs and talents just equates to the same level of service i can get on my own from Dice.com or any of the others. If your firm doesn't provide the right level of support, then don't use them: find someone who WILL support you. You're the source of their income, so you can demand better than simply being herded about.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Jeff Moden — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 13:49:07 GMT

[quote][b]TravisDBA (11/27/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Andy Warren (11/27/2010)[/b][hr]This is one of the areas where having an agent, usally someone from a staffing company, makes a lot of sense, it shields you from having to ask and risking asking the wrong person, or the right person at the wrong time.[/quote]The problem with this is that most staffing agencies are not truthful with you about what the company is really willing to pay. They will tell you the salary is $85K a year when actually they bill the company $100K and pocket the diffetrence. They just made $15K on your expertise and all they did was make a phone on your behalf! Talk about parasites. They are mo better than car salesman IMHO. I stopped using those thieves long ago. I deal will the company straight out and cut out the middle man. Most companies I hear from are also fed up with their crap as well.:-D[/quote]Staffing companies have to make money, too! ;-) I don't care if a staffing company makes twice what I make. What's important to me is how much I'm making, the "quality" of the job, the people at the job, and any benefits that may be available.As a side bar, working for a staffing company is no different than working for any other company. Negotiate the rate before you start. If the rate or the job isn't good enough, it's time to move on.Although there are some staffing companies that deserve the reputation of being the proverbial snake in the grass, the ones I've worked for have been kind, considerate, thoughtful, and the compensation has usually been better than I could have done on my own. Same goes for the jobs they've found me... absolutely top notch.If your staffing company isn't doing the same for you, it's pork chop time for them. Just remember that it's a very small world and you should never burn any bridges.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Tim Mitchell — Sun, 28 Nov 2010 12:14:11 GMT

I'm in favor of talking about salary ranges early on, preferably before either party has spent significant time in the process (for example, during the initial phone screening). That being said, when asked about salary expectations, as a candidate I try to keep the range as wide as possible, because there's more to the job than how much is in your pay envelope. For example, a $100k job that requires an hour commute every day is not the same as a $100k job that's six blocks away (or six seconds away, for WFH positions).But to Jeff's point earlier, in *most* cases there is no harm in interviewing for a position you're unlikely to accept. It keeps you in practice as an interviewee, and a good interview that doesn't immediately result in an offer could plant a seed for something in the future.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

TravisDBA — Sat, 27 Nov 2010 08:41:00 GMT

[quote][b]Andy Warren (11/27/2010)[/b][hr]This is one of the areas where having an agent, usally someone from a staffing company, makes a lot of sense, it shields you from having to ask and risking asking the wrong person, or the right person at the wrong time.[/quote]The problem with this is that most staffing agencies are not truthful with you about what the company is really willing to pay. They will tell you the salary is $85K a year when actually they bill the company $100K and pocket the diffetrence. They just made $15K on your expertise and all they did was make a phone on your behalf! Talk about parasites. They are mo better than car salesman IMHO. I stopped using those thieves long ago. I deal will the company straight out and cut out the middle man. Most companies I hear from are also fed up with their crap as well.:-D

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Andy Warren — Sat, 27 Nov 2010 07:34:34 GMT

I'm in favor of being candid, but also open to taking a chance on an interview. For a first interview that doesn't require extensive travel I'd be willing to go without confirming the range. The hard part is that in many interviews it will be a panel where not everyone on the panel knows what the range is, or what it could be for the right person. Asking in a panel is just a formula for turning the conversation to awkward.This is one of the areas where having an agent, usally someone from a staffing company, makes a lot of sense, it shields you from having to ask and risking asking the wrong person, or the right person at the wrong time.Jeff, love the comment about practice. Not something that gets acknowledged much, but it's not a good idea for your first interview in years to be the for the job you really want!

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 13:44:46 GMT

Interesting thoughts, and thanks for the comments. I still think it's important to get an idea of range early on. Then you can factor that in to deciding how far to pursue things.The thing to keep in mind is that the person doing the hiring often doesn't have the latitude to alter salary ranges or decide what they can pay you. Knowing that early can help you decide if this is worth pursuing or if you should perhaps consider asking for consideration in a different position so that they can meet your salary.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

fhanlon — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:08:53 GMT

What you need to know prior to the interview is what is the market is willing pay for someone of your skills in a position like what you are applying for. The company on their part should know this as well and be aware of what they are willing to pay. They might advertise for an intermediate level DBA and feel they would be willing to pay up to $80,000 even if industry average were $60,000 to $70,000 (don't slam me on my numbers. I know they vary geographically as well as by industry and in any case I made them up) Another company may accept the same industry average range but may only be willing to pay up to $65,000 - the low end of the spectrum. However, if you really shine in the interview the company may be willing to move on their offer perhaps by reclassifying the position as a senior level DBA. In either case there is an expectation of what the company will pay and what you want. There is a danger in you revealing that you will be willing to accept a position for $60,000 when the company may be willing to pay $80,000. That is one reason why knowing the range before hand is helpfull. But in my mind salary should be discussed only when it is obvious the company wants to hire you. (like a second interview where you know they are interested) If they say "we can start you at $60,000 with 2 weeks vacation" and you want to start at $75,000 with 3 weeks then this is the time to negotiate. If I were interviewing and the first comment of the candidate is "i want at least xxxx" I would probably say "this isn't the time to negotiate, I haven't even decided I want you here and after that comment I may not want you here" as I might assume the person is only interested in money and therefore will run away with a better offer. I know turnover exists but I expect a candiate to at least make an effort. If a company trully wants to hire a candidate and that person is not asking for something unreasonable - 16 Million over 3 years, then it can probably be done. If HR is on the ball then they should know want the industry is willing to pay and should be willing to help. If a company is not willing to make an effort to meet my request it may not be a good place to work. I've been asked on a first interview what my salary expectations are and I ususally say "I expect to be paid fairly according to my skills and the open market." If they push I try to clarify if they have now decided they want to hire me and we are now negotiating benefits. I know some companies rather that subscribe to salary surveys may try to hire people in order to find out what they want as a salary - never meaning to extend any job offer; just like some people may like to interview knowing they don't really want to change jobs - they just want to know what is out there. The best companies advertise the salary range they are willing to pay but even then ... everything is negotiable in the world of DBAs

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

alex 79936 — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 09:26:02 GMT

I used to be much more sensitive about asking the expected salary question in the past, but after seeing enough candidates, now I ask this question right during the initial pre-screening interview and found it to be a fairly straightforward subject, so why play tricks and games?It has happened that I invited a person for a formal interview knowing that his salary expectations far exceeded the position's budget. I did this just to get an idea of what that kind of candidate could be really worth if I had the money to spend and sometimes even for selfish reasons such as to let our developers speak with someone who is a significantly stronger candidate compared to themselves to make them think of where they should be in their career goals in a long haul.Funny, how you begin to grow thicker skin one you become a manager - in the past I could never imagine conducting performance appraisals of my fellow co-workers especially if someone is really not cutting it or those unpleasant times, when you have to discipline someone for letting the team down, but eventually you learn how to separate your personal empathy from the needs of the organization as long as you don't begin to think of yourself as the Big Cheese.Happy Thanksgiving!

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

mrocco1 — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 09:24:45 GMT

There are 5 parts to the interview: Introductions, Answers, Questions, Closing, and Follow-up. You'll want to make sure you understand when going from one-to-another and have a strategy for each part.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

ganotedp — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 08:56:56 GMT

The only places I know that are "up front" about salary are universities and the U.S. Federal government. Universities typically pay entry-level salaries, so they phone-screen applicants by declaring the salary (or narrow salary range) then wincing as applicants scream. Everyone else is trying to get the best qualified for their "bag of bucks" and plays very coy. So they have to offer first; I don't offer.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

TravisDBA — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 08:56:24 GMT

Well, it depends on what is revealed in the actual interview. In the past, I have been told things in a phone interview that was very different from what I was told in the actual interview, particularly concerning the load of my responsibilites. If the actual interview reveals alot more responsibilities than what the original posted job description or salary range dictated. Then yes, salary will be revisited, although maybe not in detail during the interview. Maybe I would make a statement at the end of the interview like "I was not aware of all of this added responsibilty and duties before now, so we might have to revisit salary, if I am in fact the candidate you are seeking." I have actually had people tell me that they will not pay more that a certain amount right up front, and then flat out lie to me in the phone interview what is expected of me. If I hear something like this when I ask 'Who does this position report to?" "Well you work for and take directions from anyone in the department." My response is "Ok but if that is the case then we need to revisit my starting salary because that was based on your posted job description and duties of the position and that important detail you just revealed to me was not in there." :-D

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

simonk1971 — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 08:06:55 GMT

[quote][b]Jeff Moden (11/26/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]simonk1971 (11/26/2010)[/b][hr]Who would even go to interview without having an idea of the salary range available anyway?[/quote]Just about anyone who's been out of work for a while. Also and strangely enough, interviewing at a job you're pretty sure you aren't going to want is good practice for the ones you do.[/quote]Fair point, Jeff, but then I guess you would also be less likely to turn it down if it were offered to you and didn't meet your salary expectations.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Jeff Moden — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 08:02:22 GMT

[quote][b]simonk1971 (11/26/2010)[/b][hr]Who would even go to interview without having an idea of the salary range available anyway?[/quote]Just about anyone who's been out of work for a while. Also and strangely enough, interviewing at a job you're pretty sure you aren't going to want is good practice for the ones you do.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

mrocco1 — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 07:41:47 GMT

You should have a good idea of the salary range of the position before starting the interview - do research, talk to people. If asked what salary you are expecting, state your salary expectations directly and specifically (this is usually a discussion with HR, put can also be with the hiring manager - not to a group, that is unprofessional). Don't confuse the discussion of compensation with the negotiation of salary. The later happens after an offer is made.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Matt Miller (#4) — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 05:25:36 GMT

[quote][b]Jeff Moden (11/25/2010)[/b][hr]I agree... I usually don't even entertain the idea of an interview unless I already know the salary range. I don't want to waste their time or my time.There are exceptions, of course. I may interview for a job that is particullary interesting to me or it's super close to home without knowing the salary ahead of time. I also say that after what you think is a killer interview would be the time to negotiate salary while your performance during the interview is fresh on their minds. You might be able to get more than advertised if you made a really, really good impression.[/quote] Agreed - I always like to know it's within the range. There have been times where you HAVE to have the discussion: because the range is so incredibly wide, because the job requirements end up not matching the title being advertised. Bottom line is - if you're comfortable with the entire range that could be offereed, then having the discussion is important: otherwise, it's produent to have the discussion. Interviews aren't a "comfortable" time, so just get all of the painful aspects over with in one shot. No sense in waiting to gripe about it later when the offer shows up with an insulting number.The big trick is to know whether the person you're interviewing with actually has the aility to affect that. The technical interview in my shop tends to be by people who can okay the candidate, but don't get to influence salary.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Nice Marmot — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 03:20:55 GMT

[quote][b]Jinx-640161 (11/26/2010)[/b][hr][quote]I've also found that recruitment agents advertise jobs that don't even exist! Some sort of fishing exercise I suppose :-P. All very frustrating.[/quote]Yes, particularly if they have made a good wedge out of placing someone in a similar position. I think they like to have someone 'up their sleeve' for the next time. One guy admitted that one post (a pretty specialised one) had been filled before I enquired, but he continued to advertise it for a couple of months. "Just send me your CV anyway," he said . . .

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

brendan.oconnor — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 03:17:44 GMT

I'd worry if the people interviewing me couldn't give me a decision on the money. It implies they are not the decision maker. This means that if hired I would struggle to get a pay raise because my manager would always be looking apologetic and saying "I'd like to pay you more...but it's not my decision." What else are they not in control of. My training? My appraisals? If you were buying a car and the salesperson said "I can't make a decision on that discount" you'd ask to see the person that could. Should be the same in the job market.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

simonk1971 — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:58:00 GMT

Who would even go to interview without having an idea of the salary range available anyway?

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Jinx-640161 — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:52:37 GMT

[quote]I think that the salary the recruitment consultants quote in the job listing is almost always the top possible rate that the client (the employer) would be willing to pay for an exceptional candidate. It is more of an 'attention grabber' - the offer will always be somewhere lower in the range. [/quote]I don't see the need for false advertising with regards to salary. Perhaps when they have your details they can say - you don't have the xp's so we'd offer the lower range, but at the first phone call, before they know a thing about you they say oh, sorry the company is only paying x amount, x being several thousand lower than the lowest advertised amount.I've also found that recruitment agents advertise jobs that don't even exist! Some sort of fishing exercise I suppose :-P. All very frustrating.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Nice Marmot — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:46:03 GMT

[quote][b]Jinx-640161 (11/26/2010)[/b][hr]What I find interesting is how many jobs in the UK are advertised at one salary, then when you apply you find out it's for far less...This seems to be across the IT spectrum, from c# development to DBA.><.[/quote]I think that the salary the recruitment consultants quote in the job listing is almost always the top possible rate that the client (the employer) would be willing to pay for an exceptional candidate. It is more of an 'attention grabber' - the offer will always be somewhere lower in the range.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

spaghettidba — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:38:07 GMT

I live in a country where changing job seems to be the only way to raise your salary.So, yes, I talk about money in the interview and I don't want to lose my time just to discover after three interviews that they're offering far less than what I'm earning.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Jinx-640161 — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 01:30:10 GMT

I'd say depends on the interview - first interview would be a big no for me, and second interview possibly. Always go in knowing what they are willing to offer for the role though.What I find interesting is how many jobs in the UK are advertised at one salary, then when you apply you find out it's for far less...This seems to be across the IT spectrum, from c# development to DBA.><.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

skanker — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 01:19:16 GMT

Very tricky question on when to bring the money situation up. I have always felt awkward about bringing it up myself and have always admired the nerve of those that do. On the other side of the fence when appointing people I always think that you have to balance what you offer the new candidate compared to what others in the 'team' are getting. Just because someone is perhaps 'pushier' than another candidate when it comes to money does not necessarily mean that they are worth more. That is why I prefer having a set salary range, notified in advance. The aim then being to appoint at the lower end of the range. This saves money initially and also has an added benefit of allowing a candidate to progress through the range over a period of time within the organisation. The concern with appointing someone to the top of a salary range is that they have no where to go salary wise (apart from another job somewhere else). However I guess when hiring staff for fixed term consulatncy roles this is not such an issue though as they are expected to leave.Getting back to the topic I think it is definitely preferrable to somehow agree salary in advance of any interview. I have turned down a job offer before (as I guess many others have) when there has been no movement from the bottom end of the salary range and thus me questioning some of my motives for taking the job in the first place. This is a waste of everyones time though I suppose it can be looked on in hindsight as interview practice....

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

crazy4sql — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 01:00:36 GMT

yes, if the job you going to take for money and not for charity. The very first question to consultant...whats the offer and benefit they giving?

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

wosid — Fri, 26 Nov 2010 00:41:45 GMT

Well, it all depends of your priorities isn't it? If money is the only reason that drives your decision, than hell yes get that info first place.Personally, I prioritize my decision on human factors first based on a direct bilateral discussion(s). Are they reactive, passive, engaged or not? Passion is everything that makes me happy everyday. Money does not.If i am happy at the end of the interview, I generally introduce the money question myself if not done already. I don't mentioned a figure since it all depends of the overall package, but I ask them to give me an indicator before meeting again.As Jeff said, no one wants to loose his/her time just because of a stupid 'tabou' question that is 'How much'.Frederic Bada

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

SQLRNNR — Thu, 25 Nov 2010 22:52:08 GMT

Knowing the salary range ahead of time is helpful. I hate talking money during the interview though - no matter the perceived performance. The problem with talking money during an interview is that not everybody in that room should be privy to the salary requests. If they become privy to the salary conversation and then you are hired - that could create problems.However, if they ask - then answer.

RE: Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Jeff Moden — Thu, 25 Nov 2010 21:36:22 GMT

I agree... I usually don't even entertain the idea of an interview unless I already know the salary range. I don't want to waste their time or my time.There are exceptions, of course. I may interview for a job that is particullary interesting to me or it's super close to home without knowing the salary ahead of time. I also say that after what you think is a killer interview would be the time to negotiate salary while your performance during the interview is fresh on their minds. You might be able to get more than advertised if you made a really, really good impression.

Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Thu, 25 Nov 2010 21:20:34 GMT

Comments posted to this topic are about the item [B]Do You Talk Salary in the Interview?[/B]