InstantForum.NET v2.9.0SQLServerCentralhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/notifications@sqlservercentral.comWed, 22 May 2013 10:53:48 GMT20http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspx[quote][b]steveb. (6/16/2010)[/b][hr]Though this could all change under the Tories.[/quote]I don't want to disappoint you, but when a government changes, the government itself is most likely the only thing that changes...Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:14:37 GMTspaghettidbahttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxIts the same in the UK, after you pass the 6 month probation period then it can be really difficult to fire people. There have been several high profile cases of people getting large payouts after being 'unfairly' dismissed.Though this could all change under the Tories.Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:08:22 GMTsteveb. http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxIt tends to be hard to fire anyone when you have an HR department in the company. They want to be sure the company won't get sued. I'm not sure it matters as I've seen people go quietly either way, and seen them sue either way.I think we make it harder in the US than it has to be.I have heard the NDAs and non competes are hard to enforce. However I don't know many people that want to test them.Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:47:25 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspx[quote][b]Grant Fritchey (6/16/2010)[/b][hr]I swear, about a third of our IT staff could fall into a bottomless pit and we wouldn't notice for a week.[/quote]Back when I worked at the bank I had a colleague that, had she disappeared into another plan of existence permanently, the team's overall productivity would have increased. We had to double check (and sometimes redo) just about everything she did, the days when she was on standby (for overnight production problems), we had to have a second person available as well.Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:36:32 GMTGilaMonsterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspx[quote][b]Gianluca Sartori (6/16/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Grant Fritchey (6/16/2010)[/b][hr]I swear, about a third of our IT staff could fall into a bottomless pit and we wouldn't notice for a week.[/quote]Do we work for the same company? :-P[/quote]Could be. I'm not in Italy, but it's just as hard to fire people from this company as what you describe.Wed, 16 Jun 2010 06:36:10 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspx...so the wise thing to do is NOT sign the NDA if you live in one of these countries/states then you're secure in employment forever! ;-)just kiddingWed, 16 Jun 2010 06:21:29 GMTSteve-3_5_7_9http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspx[quote][b]Grant Fritchey (6/16/2010)[/b][hr]I swear, about a third of our IT staff could fall into a bottomless pit and we wouldn't notice for a week.[/quote]Do we work for the same company? :-PWed, 16 Jun 2010 06:13:48 GMTspaghettidbahttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxIt does, indeed. The point is that many employers want their employees to sign NDAs or non-compete, but they don't know that this has to be explicitly paid. If those agreements aren't paid to the employee or paid as part of the retribution (not explicitly) i will never hold up in court.Wed, 16 Jun 2010 06:12:59 GMTspaghettidbahttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspx[quote][b]GilaMonster (6/16/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Steve-3_5_7_9 (6/16/2010)[/b][hr]Actually, this makes a lot of sense. Sometimes it is difficult to terminate someone, especially if they have great performance reviews, so having a NDA on record would simply this process.[/quote]In some parts of the world it's difficult to fire someone even if they have numerous poor performance reviews on file.[/quote]Ooh, ooh, I work there!I swear, about a third of our IT staff could fall into a bottomless pit and we wouldn't notice for a week.Wed, 16 Jun 2010 06:12:30 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspx[quote][b]Gianluca Sartori (6/16/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Steve-3_5_7_9 (6/16/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]GilaMonster (6/16/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Steve-3_5_7_9 (6/16/2010)[/b][hr]Actually, this makes a lot of sense. Sometimes it is difficult to terminate someone, especially if they have great performance reviews, so having a NDA on record would simply this process.[/quote]In some parts of the world it's difficult to fire someone even if they have numerous poor performance reviews on file.[/quote]Sounds like a productive place to work :-)Are you talking about South Africa, or somewhere else? [/quote]Italy, for instance. It's practically impossible to fire an employee. He has to break the company's rules at least three times and be notified with a letter.[/quote]So in Italy, would an NDA make it easier to fire someone, or is there still a drawn out process?Wed, 16 Jun 2010 06:07:58 GMTSteve-3_5_7_9http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspx[quote][b]Steve-3_5_7_9 (6/16/2010)[/b][hr]Are you talking about South Africa, or somewhere else? [/quote]SA. Need multiple written warnings, proof of disciplinary hearings and the dismissed person can still take the case to the labour court.Wed, 16 Jun 2010 06:07:47 GMTGilaMonsterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspx[quote][b]Steve-3_5_7_9 (6/16/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]GilaMonster (6/16/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Steve-3_5_7_9 (6/16/2010)[/b][hr]Actually, this makes a lot of sense. Sometimes it is difficult to terminate someone, especially if they have great performance reviews, so having a NDA on record would simply this process.[/quote]In some parts of the world it's difficult to fire someone even if they have numerous poor performance reviews on file.[/quote]Sounds like a productive place to work :-)Are you talking about South Africa, or somewhere else? [/quote]Italy, for instance. It's practically impossible to fire an employee. He has to break the company's rules at least three times and be notified with a letter.Wed, 16 Jun 2010 06:01:58 GMTspaghettidbahttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspx[quote][b]GilaMonster (6/16/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Steve-3_5_7_9 (6/16/2010)[/b][hr]Actually, this makes a lot of sense. Sometimes it is difficult to terminate someone, especially if they have great performance reviews, so having a NDA on record would simply this process.[/quote]In some parts of the world it's difficult to fire someone even if they have numerous poor performance reviews on file.[/quote]Sounds like a productive place to work :-)Are you talking about South Africa, or somewhere else? Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:59:39 GMTSteve-3_5_7_9http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspx[quote][b]Steve-3_5_7_9 (6/16/2010)[/b][hr]Actually, this makes a lot of sense. Sometimes it is difficult to terminate someone, especially if they have great performance reviews, so having a NDA on record would simply this process.[/quote]In some parts of the world it's difficult to fire someone even if they have numerous poor performance reviews on file.Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:53:29 GMTGilaMonsterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspx[quote][b]bteraberry (6/15/2010)[/b][hr]Very few non-competes hold up in court. Their usage has more to do with the psychological impact than the reality of their enforceability.But yeah ... anything in a normal non-disclosure should fall in line with how any ethical person would act anyway. But, since it's hard to fire people in some states they get it in black and white.[/quote]Actually, this makes a lot of sense. Sometimes it is difficult to terminate someone, especially if they have great performance reviews, so having a NDA on record would simply this process.Thanks, people.Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:36:08 GMTSteve-3_5_7_9http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxVery few non-competes hold up in court. Their usage has more to do with the psychological impact than the reality of their enforceability.But yeah ... anything in a normal non-disclosure should fall in line with how any ethical person would act anyway. But, since it's hard to fire people in some states they get it in black and white.Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:58:57 GMTbteraberryhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxIt's likely they're just having all IT people sign one, regardless of job, just to prevent disclosure of IP related to the company.I'd agree with others, most of the time this isn't a big deal.Tue, 15 Jun 2010 09:06:25 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxThe only non-compete I've ever had prevented me from working for any of that company's clients for a period of 2 years. For a small custom software house, I could see the logic of that and had no problems signing it.Tue, 15 Jun 2010 09:03:45 GMTGilaMonsterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxYeah, NDA's are easy. It's Non-Compete's that I worry about.Tue, 15 Jun 2010 08:55:22 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxInvestors often require all employees to sign NDAs. Your company may replace anyone refusing to sign with someone who will. ;-)Tue, 15 Jun 2010 08:54:40 GMTSteve Cullenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxIt's usually no big deal. I've got a drawer full of NDA documents.Tue, 15 Jun 2010 08:32:14 GMTGilaMonsterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxThanks, Grant. I'll scrutinize their wording to make sure no "funny business" is going on.In the end, I suppose it isn't a big deal.Tue, 15 Jun 2010 08:27:07 GMTSteve-3_5_7_9http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxIt's a legal compliance within what should be your standards anyway... sign it. No big deal.You just have to be careful about language. I had a company that wanted me to sign a non-compete that said I wouldn't work with any tools or languages that used tcpip to collect data and put it into a database. I had to explain to the lawyers that meant I could never work at my job, ever again, depending on how the document was interpreted. Needless to say, I didn't sign it. They came up with a better one.Tue, 15 Jun 2010 07:36:37 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxThey can sue you, and the company who paid/hired you to steal the information, and prevent the "thieves" from using the information.They will also ensure you never work at any important place, I know financial institutions have a "black list" or people to never employ.Tue, 15 Jun 2010 07:04:25 GMTHenrico Bekkerhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspx[quote][b]Steve-3_5_7_9 (6/15/2010)[/b][hr]Thanks for the comment.Ok, I see the point about company secrets, but this has to do with the data in a specific system.Additionally it's illegal for me to sell the data whether or not a NDA is on record so how is the company offered more protection.[/quote]Depending on where you live the NDA makes it easier for them to go after you (and your money) personally if there are any breaches of the NDA.You are right in saying that the results are simliar whether you sign or not, However The NDA gives them a clear legal path that could be a lot easier and cheaper to enforce and not so open to appeals.Tue, 15 Jun 2010 07:02:31 GMTsteveb. http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxThanks for the comment.Ok, I see the point about company secrets, but this has to do with the data in a specific system.Additionally it's illegal for me to sell the data whether or not a NDA is on record so how is the company offered more protection.Tue, 15 Jun 2010 06:59:20 GMTSteve-3_5_7_9http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxPoint is, they don't have a list of things you may, or may not disclose.This is in general. "don't disclose any private information regarding our company", which I fully back.If you start your own company, I'm sure you'd expect your employees to keep company secrets to themselves?Alot of information may seem trivial to you, but could hurt a company financially.At the end, it's more a basic protection against their employees selling information.And, if you want to work there, why make a fuss of this? Except if you plan on disclosing information?Tue, 15 Jun 2010 06:52:04 GMTHenrico Bekkerhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic937432-149-1.aspxI have been with my company for over 10 years and the last 7 years my job has been that of a DBA. Recently I've been asked to sign a non closure agreement for a particular system and I hesitated and not yet signed the agreement for the following reasons.1. As a DBA, one of our primary duties is to secure the data and ensure it's not "improperly accessed" or compromised. Signing a non disclosure agreement doesn't change this fundamental practice.2. What are the repercussions? Whether the agreement is signed, or not the end result is the same. If I sign the agreement and then disclose the data, I would be terminated. If I don't sign the agreement, or if I compromise data in other systems, I could be terminated. To me there is no point, even a legal point as the end result is the same.The security on this system is no different than other systems that I'm currently assigned to, in fact, there is more sensitive data on some other systems.I can see the requirement for signing such a document for employees whose role isn't of that of a DBA, such as system developer or B.A. as securing data isn't their primary role.What are your thoughts and experiences with the Non Disclosure Agreements? Is it pointless to even make an issue out of this? Are my points valid?Thanks,SteveTue, 15 Jun 2010 06:45:44 GMTSteve-3_5_7_9