InstantForum.NET v2.9.0SQLServerCentralhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/notifications@sqlservercentral.comTue, 21 May 2013 14:26:20 GMT20http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/19/2012)[/b][hr]Master Moden,Absolutely she did... she rolled her eyes as dramatically as possible at the answers to her questions in that area.Alas... She took a different offer. We have a hard time competing with Oil and Gas salaries....Crusty.[/quote]Heh... so much for really liking a "family-like environment". :-P That's really too bad... from your description, she sounds rock solid both in the DBA world and in her ability to communicate.Fri, 19 Oct 2012 09:20:59 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/19/2012)[/b][hr]Master Moden,Absolutely she did... she rolled her eyes as dramatically as possible at the answers to her questions in that area.Alas... She took a different offer. We have a hard time competing with Oil and Gas salaries....Crusty.[/quote]From what you've described, she's a goldmine of good ideas and open about sharing them. Even if she does take another job offer, ask her if she'd be interested in providing a few hours a month of consulting and design work with you guys on the side.Fri, 19 Oct 2012 07:42:59 GMTEric M Russellhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspxMaster Moden,Absolutely she did... she rolled her eyes as dramatically as possible at the answers to her questions in that area.Alas... She took a different offer. We have a hard time competing with Oil and Gas salaries....Crusty.Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:28:32 GMTCptCrusty1http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/18/2012)[/b][hr]UPDATE!!!Ok... We interviewed 2 candidates that seemed to have plenty of exp. C1 had 17 years of verifiable exp, checked his references, etc. Candidate 2 had [b]FIVE MS CERT's[/b] related to MS DBA and Sysadmin work in SQL Server 2008 and MS Server/Networking apps. On top of that, she has 2 Masters in technology fields, and a BS in CIS... I got her MS Transcript, and we verified her graduate degrees. She blew us away... I asked her the following question:"Imagine an environment that currently has no DBA. No User Profiles. People using SA account. No Dev environments. I'm going to give you the key to the cabinet and you go do your thing. Where do you start?"She talked for 12 minutes and wow can she talk. She then started asking questions about our hardware to which the boss was ready. He started answering the questions and they got into a back and forth. Then she started asking me questions about the database environment and started drawing conclusions. "So you have X and Y, but not Z? You probably have A, but not B, and maybe C?" She started asking questions about our previous migrations which the boss was able to answer... Then she zero'd in on a problem with the current hardware/software config that the boss is trying to get cleared up. She started making recommendations which the boss wrote down and then checked out.... she was dead on.I said it was hypothetical and she turned it on us and started doing her job.... I'm not a DBA, but I recognized enough of what she was saying to realize she knew what she was doing. She likes our small company environment. Family feel, fun, relaxed... another company offered her a lot more money. She says the environment is important, and so are the Bennies... I can only hope at this point......[/quote]Did she suggest a "lockdown/control" plan and a plan to effectively create a Dev environment?Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:05:09 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Eric M Russell (10/18/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/18/2012)[/b][hr]UPDATE!!!Ok... We interviewed 2 candidates that seemed to have plenty of exp. C1 had 17 years of verifiable exp, checked his references, etc. Candidate 2 had [b]FIVE MS CERT's[/b] related to MS DBA and Sysadmin work in SQL Server 2008 and MS Server/Networking apps. On top of that, she has 2 Masters in technology fields, and a BS in CIS... I got her MS Transcript, and we verified her graduate degrees. She blew us away... [/quote]C2 sounds smart and well read, but how many years on job related experience do they have? The real world can be messy, vague, uncooperative, and best options are not always available. The true test of any professional is their adaptability and resolve in less than ideal circumstances.[/quote]Eric,She has 9 yrs exp post BS degree, 4 post 2nd Masters. Certs were all done in 2010. Her CV spoke to the problem we had so she has the experience with the same problems we currently have. She identified well with the bosses questions re: systems infrastructure.Thu, 18 Oct 2012 09:55:17 GMTCptCrusty1http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/18/2012)[/b][hr]UPDATE!!!Ok... We interviewed 2 candidates that seemed to have plenty of exp. C1 had 17 years of verifiable exp, checked his references, etc. Candidate 2 had [b]FIVE MS CERT's[/b] related to MS DBA and Sysadmin work in SQL Server 2008 and MS Server/Networking apps. On top of that, she has 2 Masters in technology fields, and a BS in CIS... I got her MS Transcript, and we verified her graduate degrees. She blew us away... [/quote]C2 sounds smart and well read, but how many years on job related experience do they have? The real world can be messy, vague, uncooperative, and best options are not always available. The true test of any professional is their adaptability and resolve in less than ideal circumstances.Thu, 18 Oct 2012 09:50:27 GMTEric M Russellhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/18/2012)[/b][hr]UPDATE!!!Ok... We interviewed 2 candidates that seemed to have plenty of exp. C1 had 17 years of verifiable exp, checked his references, etc. Candidate 2 had [b]FIVE MS CERT's[/b] related to MS DBA and Sysadmin work in SQL Server 2008 and MS Server/Networking apps. On top of that, she has 2 Masters in technology fields, and a BS in CIS... I got her MS Transcript, and we verified her graduate degrees. She blew us away... I asked her the following question:"Imagine an environment that currently has no DBA. No User Profiles. People using SA account. No Dev environments. I'm going to give you the key to the cabinet and you go do your thing. Where do you start?"She talked for 12 minutes and wow can she talk. She then started asking questions about our hardware to which the boss was ready. He started answering the questions and they got into a back and forth. Then she started asking me questions about the database environment and started drawing conclusions. "So you have X and Y, but not Z? You probably have A, but not B, and maybe C?" She started asking questions about our previous migrations which the boss was able to answer... Then she zero'd in on a problem with the current hardware/software config that the boss is trying to get cleared up. She started making recommendations which the boss wrote down and then checked out.... she was dead on.I said it was hypothetical and she turned it on us and started doing her job.... I'm not a DBA, but I recognized enough of what she was saying to realize she knew what she was doing. She likes our small company environment. Family feel, fun, relaxed... another company offered her a lot more money. She says the environment is important, and so are the Bennies... I can only hope at this point......[/quote]Sounds great. Good luck.Thu, 18 Oct 2012 08:57:37 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspxUPDATE!!!Ok... We interviewed 2 candidates that seemed to have plenty of exp. C1 had 17 years of verifiable exp, checked his references, etc. Candidate 2 had [b]FIVE MS CERT's[/b] related to MS DBA and Sysadmin work in SQL Server 2008 and MS Server/Networking apps. On top of that, she has 2 Masters in technology fields, and a BS in CIS... I got her MS Transcript, and we verified her graduate degrees. She blew us away... I asked her the following question:"Imagine an environment that currently has no DBA. No User Profiles. People using SA account. No Dev environments. I'm going to give you the key to the cabinet and you go do your thing. Where do you start?"She talked for 12 minutes and wow can she talk. She then started asking questions about our hardware to which the boss was ready. He started answering the questions and they got into a back and forth. Then she started asking me questions about the database environment and started drawing conclusions. "So you have X and Y, but not Z? You probably have A, but not B, and maybe C?" She started asking questions about our previous migrations which the boss was able to answer... Then she zero'd in on a problem with the current hardware/software config that the boss is trying to get cleared up. She started making recommendations which the boss wrote down and then checked out.... she was dead on.I said it was hypothetical and she turned it on us and started doing her job.... I'm not a DBA, but I recognized enough of what she was saying to realize she knew what she was doing. She likes our small company environment. Family feel, fun, relaxed... another company offered her a lot more money. She says the environment is important, and so are the Bennies... I can only hope at this point......Thu, 18 Oct 2012 08:54:25 GMTCptCrusty1http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspxI don't know if this is still an open issue or not, but if it is and you want help interviewing and identifying the right candidate, I know an independent consultant who offers this as a service. I can give you her contact info if you want.Sun, 07 Oct 2012 22:26:50 GMTRobert Davishttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Perry Whittle (10/7/2012)[/b][hr]No, i based my reply on the quote above, so which is it all or some?[/quote]Like I said, I'll interview all of them even if they mispelled "SQL" on their resume. :-D It's not a matter of me having time on my hands... it's a matter of me finding the best fit for whatever job I need to have filled even if they can't write a resume. [quote][b]Perry Whittle (10/7/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/7/2012)[/b][hr]I've also found that some people who are very smart about SQL can't write a resume to save their soul. [/quote]True, but the same is true for all professions. Not just DBAs or even IT generally.[/quote]I believe that answers the question of why I'll interview everyone. :-)[quote][b]Perry Whittle (10/7/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/6/2012)[/b][hr]]Let me ask, did you serve in the military, Perry?[/quote]No, did you?? Not every serviceman is a grade a "sir, yes sir" recruit. As i said i have known people who have been in the forces and you wouldn't trust them with a firearm let alone your bicycle. To imply that any one who served in the forces is better than anyone else is pretty shallow tbh. There are 7 billion people on this planet and a small portion have served in the armed forces, for everyone of these guys therell be double that in civvy street who "have what it takes" to excel in IT as a DBA or indeed any other discipline.[/quote]Like I said, I agree that not every serviceman is worth their salt. But as you've so very adequately pointed out, out of the 7 billion people on this planet, only a very small percentage has served their country in such a fashion (conscribed or volunteered). I'm certainly not looking for a "sir, yes sir" recruit. That would be a "code monkey" and if I ever need one of those, I'll start accepting resumes from the zoo. :-P Most folks with service experience that I've had the pleasure of meeting not only know how to think outside the proverbial box, but they also know how to communicate problems quickly and effectively. Yes, I agree that there are "civies" that have what it takes but I'll give someone with service experience the extra "break" because they've been in harms way. I'd do so even if I didn't have service experience myself.[quote][b]Perry Whittle (10/7/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/7/2012)[/b][hr]clustering or log shipping because (s)he wouldn't ever be tasked in that area. [/quote]If a DBA installs a clustered instance of sql server and cant list the typical resources found then that in my mind is a huge shortfall. You dont use log shipping then?[/quote]No question about it. If the DBA installs a clustered instance, (s)he'd better be able to do as you say. But, in our company, the DBA doesn't do that and SQL Server clustering isn't what is being used. I'm not 100% sure how it all works because I've not done a deep dive on it but they also have a system that creates its own logs and it captures every byte that changes on the server for DR purposes where most people might use log shipping.[quote][b]Perry Whittle (10/7/2012)[/b][hr]Honestly i would be throwing in the diffs as i'd want to know that person could provide me with more than 1 restore path in the event of a lost or corrupted log backup. Your scenario provides only a single restore path [/quote]I'm not sure you reading the answers to the questions you've asked, Perry. Did I not say that if they answered the 4 questions on full PIT restores that the 5th question would include differentials?Sun, 07 Oct 2012 09:10:43 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/6/2012)[/b][hr]and my answer was that I basically interview anyone that applies. [/quote][quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/7/2012)[/b][hr]Did you read the other part about usually only getting 6 or 8 candidates or the part about me reserving the right to limit the length of the interview? I've been known to stop an interview after just 2 questions.[/quote]No, i based my reply on the quote above, so which is it all or some?[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/7/2012)[/b][hr]I've also found that some people who are very smart about SQL can't write a resume to save their soul. [/quote]True, but the same is true for all professions. Not just DBAs or even IT generally.[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/6/2012)[/b][hr]]Let me ask, did you serve in the military, Perry?[/quote]No, did you?? Not every serviceman is a grade a "sir, yes sir" recruit. As i said i have known people who have been in the forces and you wouldn't trust them with a firearm let alone your bicycle. To imply that any one who served in the forces is better than anyone else is pretty shallow tbh. There are 7 billion people on this planet and a small portion have served in the armed forces, for everyone of these guys therell be double that in civvy street who "have what it takes" to excel in IT as a DBA or indeed any other discipline.[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/7/2012)[/b][hr]clustering or log shipping because (s)he wouldn't ever be tasked in that area. [/quote]If a DBA installs a clustered instance of sql server and cant list the typical resources found then that in my mind is a huge shortfall. You dont use log shipping then?Honestly i would be throwing in the diffs as i'd want to know that person could provide me with more than 1 restore path in the event of a lost or corrupted log backup. Your scenario provides only a single restore pathSun, 07 Oct 2012 08:37:22 GMTPerry Whittlehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Perry Whittle (10/7/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/6/2012)[/b][hr]Someone on this thread asked what I looked for on resumes [/quote]i did ;-)[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/6/2012)[/b][hr]and my answer was that I basically interview anyone that applies. [/quote]so you get 25 CVs and you interview the lot??You have way to much time on your hands :-)[/quote]Did you read the other part about usually only getting 6 or 8 candidates or the part about me reserving the right to limit the length of the interview? I've been known to stop an interview after just 2 questions.I've also found that some people who are very smart about SQL can't write a resume to save their soul. [quote][quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/6/2012)[/b][hr]I will, in fact, move veterans to the top of the stack because of the training they receive in the military especially the lessons they receive in how to communicate effectively.[/quote]Sorry, but i don't subscribe to this. There are just as many people in civvy street who have the discipline and work ethos you would be looking for. I also have known many people who have been in the services and trust me you wouldn't employ them to fix your bicycle :-P[/quote]Agreed but I've found that to be the exception rather than the rule. Regardless, I'll always give people that have put themselves in harms way some additional consideration.Let me ask, did you serve in the military, Perry?[quote]I have read the 4 tough questions and wondering why you're so pre occupied with the t-log LSNs. What about the differential base LSN too. In reality a DBA would be restoring a differential backup and not 3 days of log backups during their restore scenario.[/quote]Someone asked for a "tough" question. I posted 4 related "tough" questions. That's all.Also, in reality, I made the questions easier by not including differential backups. If they can't do a PIT restore using just FULL and T-Log files, why would they be able to use differentials? Question 5 would be "... And if you have Differential files, then what?" [quote]Other questions i would be asking would be more along the lines of[ul][li]what resources would you expect to see for a typical clustered instance of SQL server?[/li][li]list the agent jobs that are created for a Log shipping scenario and where they execute[/li][/ul][/quote]Agreed. Good questions that I'd likely ask right after I found out if they could actually do a PIT restore. :-DIt also "Depends". We have an atypical clustering method where the DBA isn't involved at all. The infrastructure folks have a different method they're using for both local clustering and replication to the DR clusters. In the current case, I wouldn't even bother the candidate with a question on clustering or log shipping because (s)he wouldn't ever be tasked in that area. I might explain the setup to the candidate and then ask what they suppose will happen if one of the nodes is bounced for maintenance or what might happen to DR replication if a runaway query exploded the log file.Sun, 07 Oct 2012 07:47:23 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Grant Fritchey (10/6/2012)[/b][hr]For those interested, I'm a film school drop-out. No degree, not a single certification, nothing from an outside accrediting body to validate that I have a clue what I'm doing with SQL Server. Funny thing is, I still seem able to get jobs.[/quote]Me too, i'm an engineering college drop out (wanted to be a toolmaker originally, who knew). Apart from some early city and guilds IT related courses and MS certs in Windows server, desktop and Active Directory which are a little old now i have no other validation from accrediting bodies but still get contracts, based on my previous engagements. I've even secured a contract without an actual formal interview ;-)My CV contains details of all previous perm and contract assignments (contract for the last 6 years), all verifiable if the client wants to make a call.Sun, 07 Oct 2012 02:07:49 GMTPerry Whittlehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/6/2012)[/b][hr]Someone on this thread asked what I looked for on resumes [/quote]i did ;-)[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/6/2012)[/b][hr]and my answer was that I basically interview anyone that applies. [/quote]so you get 25 CVs and you interview the lot??You have way to much time on your hands :-)[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/6/2012)[/b][hr]I will, in fact, move veterans to the top of the stack because of the training they receive in the military especially the lessons they receive in how to communicate effectively.[/quote]Sorry, but i don't subscribe to this. There are just as many people in civvy street who have the discipline and work ethos you would be looking for. I also have known many people who have been in the services and trust me you wouldn't employ them to fix your bicycle :-PI have read the 4 tough questions and wondering why you're so pre occupied with the t-log LSNs. What about the differential base LSN too. In reality a DBA would be restoring a differential backup and not 3 days of log backups during their restore scenario.Other questions i would be asking would be more along the lines of[ul][li]what resources would you expect to see for a typical clustered instance of SQL server?[/li][li]list the agent jobs that are created for a Log shipping scenario and where they execute[/li][/ul]Sun, 07 Oct 2012 01:35:54 GMTPerry Whittlehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/6/2012)[/b][hr]Heh... Roger that! God bless Navy training!Someone on this thread asked what I looked for on resumes and my answer was that I basically interview anyone that applies. That's not quite right, though. If, for some reason, I'm only allowed to conduct a certain number of interviews (that happened once), I will, in fact, move veterans to the top of the stack because of the training they receive in the military especially the lessons they receive in how to communicate effectively.[/quote]Me too. I have a positive bias towards vets. It's automatic.Sat, 06 Oct 2012 19:07:38 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Grant Fritchey (10/6/2012)[/b][hr]You already know that you & I are pretty close to lock step on this one. For those interested, I'm a film school drop-out. No degree, not a single certification, nothing from an outside accrediting body to validate that I have a clue what I'm doing with SQL Server. Funny thing is, I still seem able to get jobs.[/quote]Heh... Roger that! God bless Navy training!Someone on this thread asked what I looked for on resumes and my answer was that I basically interview anyone that applies. That's not quite right, though. If, for some reason, I'm only allowed to conduct a certain number of interviews (that happened once), I will, in fact, move veterans to the top of the stack because of the training they receive in the military especially the lessons they receive in how to communicate effectively.Sat, 06 Oct 2012 09:09:40 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Evil Kraig F (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Nadrek (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]These two candidates come as stark contrast to each other. Both have Advanced Degress, hers is technology related, his is an MBA, both have BS in CS. He has no other education since his MBA, she completed 5 Microsoft courses in 2010, 3 more in 2011, and 2 this year alone.... blows me a way. My feeling from the two resumes is that she lives for her work. He lives for... something else.. don't know. His resume doesn't smell right to me. I go with the first instinct.Hows that? Do I pass? Can I have a cookie now? Please? :-D[/quote]You fail - actual field experience, in particular doing experiments and learning what, why, when, and except, can give a lot of very valuable information. The Microsoft courses are nice, but they aren't meaningful in and of themselves.Now, if you want someone that lives for their work, that's a personality judgement, not a skills assessment.[/quote]Just to throw this out there... I don't have a college degree, not even an associates. I took some college at one point and we didn't play nice together. I also don't have a single certification. I'm self taught and a contractor, I rarely (until this last contract) held any position longer than 6-9 months. I've been mentored and I'm constantly learning, but I sure as hell don't live to work, I take your money in exchange for my work so I can live my life.Imagine judging me on those parameters... I'm not one of the gurus but I like to think I'm pretty good. Don't read too much into paper knowledge. They give you a head start early in your career (first few years), but after a certain point they're not as important unless they're bringing an alternate skillset (like mathmatics or sociology) to the table.[/quote]+1000 and ditto that.[/quote]You already know that you & I are pretty close to lock step on this one. For those interested, I'm a film school drop-out. No degree, not a single certification, nothing from an outside accrediting body to validate that I have a clue what I'm doing with SQL Server. Funny thing is, I still seem able to get jobs.Sat, 06 Oct 2012 08:03:49 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Perry Whittle (10/4/2012)[/b][hr]Generally I think that experience is a better measuring stick, sure you'll have exceptions but overall experience counts.[/quote]If I hadn't actually been through it, I'd absolutely agree. But my personal experience with conducting interviews has been quite the opposite. For example, one fellow (SQL Developer candidate) claimed 10 years of experience in both Oracle and SQL Server and further claimed, on the resume, to be a "9 out of 10 in both". I inform each candidate that I'm going to start out with easy questions to break the ice and relaxe a bit. When I asked this guy how to get the current date and time using T-SQL, his answer was "I don't know. [i]They [/i]always used the GUI for that."In the most recent round of hiring at my previous company, we interviewed 6 people that claimed to be DBAs. All of them fit the category of "7 to 10 years" of experience according to their resumes. 5 of them didn't know you could backup the log file. Of those 5, 4 of them didn't know anything about index maintenance never mind index fragmentation, 1 of them had never done a backup, and none of the 5 had ever done a restore. The one who had some actual knowledge of what a System DBA actually does didn't know the differences between clustered and non-clustered indexes but did know that one of them "lived in the data" although he couldn't remember which one. Imagine the fun there when we got into things like "security".[/quote]I've said it before and I'll say it again, you get people with 5,10,20 years of experience, and you get people with one year of experience multiplied 20 times. It's the difference between someone who shows up and does exactly what they're told, and no more, and someone who is constantly striving and growing.Sat, 06 Oct 2012 07:55:15 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Evil Kraig F (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Nadrek (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]These two candidates come as stark contrast to each other. Both have Advanced Degress, hers is technology related, his is an MBA, both have BS in CS. He has no other education since his MBA, she completed 5 Microsoft courses in 2010, 3 more in 2011, and 2 this year alone.... blows me a way. My feeling from the two resumes is that she lives for her work. He lives for... something else.. don't know. His resume doesn't smell right to me. I go with the first instinct.Hows that? Do I pass? Can I have a cookie now? Please? :-D[/quote]You fail - actual field experience, in particular doing experiments and learning what, why, when, and except, can give a lot of very valuable information. The Microsoft courses are nice, but they aren't meaningful in and of themselves.Now, if you want someone that lives for their work, that's a personality judgement, not a skills assessment.[/quote]Just to throw this out there... I don't have a college degree, not even an associates. I took some college at one point and we didn't play nice together. I also don't have a single certification. I'm self taught and a contractor, I rarely (until this last contract) held any position longer than 6-9 months. I've been mentored and I'm constantly learning, but I sure as hell don't live to work, I take your money in exchange for my work so I can live my life.Imagine judging me on those parameters... I'm not one of the gurus but I like to think I'm pretty good. Don't read too much into paper knowledge. They give you a head start early in your career (first few years), but after a certain point they're not as important unless they're bringing an alternate skillset (like mathmatics or sociology) to the table.[/quote]+1000 and ditto that.Fri, 05 Oct 2012 21:54:14 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Nadrek (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]These two candidates come as stark contrast to each other. Both have Advanced Degress, hers is technology related, his is an MBA, both have BS in CS. He has no other education since his MBA, she completed 5 Microsoft courses in 2010, 3 more in 2011, and 2 this year alone.... blows me a way. My feeling from the two resumes is that she lives for her work. He lives for... something else.. don't know. His resume doesn't smell right to me. I go with the first instinct.Hows that? Do I pass? Can I have a cookie now? Please? :-D[/quote]You fail - actual field experience, in particular doing experiments and learning what, why, when, and except, can give a lot of very valuable information. The Microsoft courses are nice, but they aren't meaningful in and of themselves.Now, if you want someone that lives for their work, that's a personality judgement, not a skills assessment.[/quote]I believe I've found a kindred spirit. :-) Alphabet soup is nice but what does someone really know?Fri, 05 Oct 2012 21:45:26 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Nadrek (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Abu Dina (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]Can you give an example of a "tough" question?[/quote]0. Ask a question that they can answer based on rote memorizationThen1. Why?2. Explain more.3. So, is that better or worse than Y?4. <trick question to expose blatant lying or, on a phone interview, Google as the actual candidate>[/quote]Zactly! "Conversational interview" that builds on previous answers.Fri, 05 Oct 2012 21:42:10 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Perry Whittle (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]A caveat to this, Sir Moden, is that someone could actually have 10 years exp, but the question is the quality/type of exp they have.[/quote]That's precisely the point I was trying to make about "experience". Years served is not necessarily a good indication of knowlege or skill.[/quote]So, pre interview, what are you using to measure whether you'll even bother sitting the candidate in front of you?[/quote]Unfortunately, none. I'd like to say that I go by something I see on the resume but most of the companies I've worked for get their candidates exclusively through recruiters. That means two things... I don't trust the recruiters to properly filter the candidates (they reject some of the good ones for many odd reasons) so I tell them to send me anyone with "SQL Server" on the resume and I typically don't get very many candidates (usually something less than 8). I think that may be because I'm in an area of the country that is big on DB2 and Oracle. There's not much big stuff available for SQL Server in this geographic area.For those reasons, if someone is sent as a candidate and even if they mispell "SQL" on their resume, I give everyone a shot with the understanding that I reserve the right to terminate the interview as early as I think I need to. Quite literally, it usually takes me less than 15 minutes to figure out if a candidate will know what I need them to know or not. Any time spent after that is figuring out how much they know so I can compare the candidates and pick out the best one (or how many I'm trying to hire). Yes, I've been known to put off hiring rather than "settle" for someone that doesn't meet expectations. No, my expectations are really as high as most people would expect. For example, I don't really expect most DBAs to answer the 4 "tough" questions I posted (it does, however, show how they deal with "tough" questions they don't know the answer to). I do, however, expect and demand them to know how to do full and transactional log backups and restores to a point-in-time even if they don't know the mechanics that SQL Server GUI uses to determine which log files to use for the restore (which is what the LSN questions were all about).Fri, 05 Oct 2012 21:36:27 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Abu Dina (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]Hmmm... I made a lame attempt to answer the 8 questions. I then researched the answers online.You wouldn't have hired me! Lol :-D[/quote]On the contrary, Abu... First, the questions are fairly well advanced for their given areas (well, except for the one about the execution plan). I've not yet run into a DBA candidate that could answer even one of the 4 DBA questions I posted but have obviously still hired many a DBA in my life. Similar holds true with the SQL Developer questions. I consider the questions to be "bonus" questions that I'd teach the new employee if they didn't already know them (they need to know these things for the jobs I want them to do) and serve only as tie-breakers if they could actually answer them.Second, you've already shown one of the traits that I value just as much as experience. You took the time to find out on your own for your own edification. There's a lot of value in that and I cherish that in a candidate. After all, how do you get "experience" without that trait? ;-) They don't teach things like the Tally Table or how to count without loops in Books Online or any Microsoft course that I'm aware of.Fri, 05 Oct 2012 21:09:21 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Evil Kraig F (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Abu Dina (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]Hmmm... I made a lame attempt to answer the 8 questions. I then researched the answers online.You wouldn't have hired me! Lol :-D[/quote]Noone can know everything about SQL Server. The dev questions I got, but the administrative ones I know I don't know two of them well enough, particularly about LSN alignments.On QotD's I bluff my way through, I'm the only one who cares if I get it wrong and as a comedy gameshow once said: "The points don't matter."However, in an interview, there's one strength I want to hear from any candidate. One thing I eventually want to hear from them. "I don't know." The one true strength in any administrator or developer is to realize they're in too deep and need to research. What I WANT is a strong response to my followup question: "What do you do to find out once you realize you need this for your work?"That is a key point to me in any interview. I have some very selective spikes in my knowledge, because of some really odd things I've had to work with. High activity BLOB access in particular are a place I'll wreck a lot of people on (around here there's always someone better, but in reality...). But all that does is, instead of giving me an opportunity to show off, is to run someone up a tree to where either they accept they aren't god's gift to databasing and are willing to admit it (something I want to hear) or they start smoke and sunshining me, at which point they're shown the door. There's a lot I don't know either.[/quote]Wow... You're so right Craig.Fri, 05 Oct 2012 14:26:55 GMTAbu Dinahttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Nadrek (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]These two candidates come as stark contrast to each other. Both have Advanced Degress, hers is technology related, his is an MBA, both have BS in CS. He has no other education since his MBA, she completed 5 Microsoft courses in 2010, 3 more in 2011, and 2 this year alone.... blows me a way. My feeling from the two resumes is that she lives for her work. He lives for... something else.. don't know. His resume doesn't smell right to me. I go with the first instinct.Hows that? Do I pass? Can I have a cookie now? Please? :-D[/quote]You fail - actual field experience, in particular doing experiments and learning what, why, when, and except, can give a lot of very valuable information. The Microsoft courses are nice, but they aren't meaningful in and of themselves.Now, if you want someone that lives for their work, that's a personality judgement, not a skills assessment.[/quote]Just to throw this out there... I don't have a college degree, not even an associates. I took some college at one point and we didn't play nice together. I also don't have a single certification. I'm self taught and a contractor, I rarely (until this last contract) held any position longer than 6-9 months. I've been mentored and I'm constantly learning, but I sure as hell don't live to work, I take your money in exchange for my work so I can live my life.Imagine judging me on those parameters... I'm not one of the gurus but I like to think I'm pretty good. Don't read too much into paper knowledge. They give you a head start early in your career (first few years), but after a certain point they're not as important unless they're bringing an alternate skillset (like mathmatics or sociology) to the table.Fri, 05 Oct 2012 12:58:18 GMTEvil Kraig Fhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Abu Dina (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]Hmmm... I made a lame attempt to answer the 8 questions. I then researched the answers online.You wouldn't have hired me! Lol :-D[/quote]Noone can know everything about SQL Server. The dev questions I got, but the administrative ones I know I don't know two of them well enough, particularly about LSN alignments.On QotD's I bluff my way through, I'm the only one who cares if I get it wrong and as a comedy gameshow once said: "The points don't matter."However, in an interview, there's one strength I want to hear from any candidate. One thing I eventually want to hear from them. "I don't know." The one true strength in any administrator or developer is to realize they're in too deep and need to research. What I WANT is a strong response to my followup question: "What do you do to find out once you realize you need this for your work?"That is a key point to me in any interview. I have some very selective spikes in my knowledge, because of some really odd things I've had to work with. High activity BLOB access in particular are a place I'll wreck a lot of people on (around here there's always someone better, but in reality...). But all that does is, instead of giving me an opportunity to show off, is to run someone up a tree to where either they accept they aren't god's gift to databasing and are willing to admit it (something I want to hear) or they start smoke and sunshining me, at which point they're shown the door. There's a lot I don't know either.Fri, 05 Oct 2012 12:53:22 GMTEvil Kraig Fhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]These two candidates come as stark contrast to each other. Both have Advanced Degress, hers is technology related, his is an MBA, both have BS in CS. He has no other education since his MBA, she completed 5 Microsoft courses in 2010, 3 more in 2011, and 2 this year alone.... blows me a way. My feeling from the two resumes is that she lives for her work. He lives for... something else.. don't know. His resume doesn't smell right to me. I go with the first instinct.Hows that? Do I pass? Can I have a cookie now? Please? :-D[/quote]You fail - actual field experience, in particular doing experiments and learning what, why, when, and except, can give a lot of very valuable information. The Microsoft courses are nice, but they aren't meaningful in and of themselves.Now, if you want someone that lives for their work, that's a personality judgement, not a skills assessment.Fri, 05 Oct 2012 12:48:59 GMTNadrekhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Abu Dina (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]Can you give an example of a "tough" question?[/quote]0. Ask a question that they can answer based on rote memorizationThen1. Why?2. Explain more.3. So, is that better or worse than Y?4. <trick question to expose blatant lying or, on a phone interview, Google as the actual candidate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 12:44:35 GMTNadrekhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Perry Whittle (10/4/2012)[/b][hr]A great one is"it's late and you're rebooting the SQL Server but it's taking forever to shutdown and restart, why shouldn't you hold the power button for 4 secs to get a quick restart?"[/quote]Why didn't they shut the SQL services down first? If they're already shut down, hold the power button in! :w00t:Fri, 05 Oct 2012 12:37:20 GMTscogebhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspxHmmm... I made a lame attempt to answer the 8 questions. I then researched the answers online.You wouldn't have hired me! Lol :-DFri, 05 Oct 2012 11:31:49 GMTAbu Dinahttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote]So, pre interview, what are you using to measure whether you'll even bother sitting the candidate in front of you?[/quote]Other than the option for a phone screen, I use what I call my BS meter... or, "The smell test"One of the candidates we're going to interview has 5 MS Certifications for 2008 related things including DBA stuff. I got her Transcript from microsoft to verify. The language in her resume was not super "high-brow" telling me how she single-handedly solved the problems of the world. That kind of stuff.Easily verifiable stuff like a Masters in Computer Science and Network Infrastructure, yadda yadda... These things tell me she's the real deal without having to speak a word. Now, whether she is able to apply it or not, that's another thing. Turns out she's "Linked" to a former colleague of mine via Linked'In... so I reached out and got a favorable reply. Nothing detailed, just a quick opinion thing. Her resume was very casual and almost humble.A candidate I turned down was tripping my BS meter all over the place... His resume was filled with "solely responsible", "sole collaborator on a 2 person team". Lots of stuff about how he saved the world. 4 previous jobs listed, 2 were for short terms. The language of the resume was extremely high in the confidence meter. Plus he rated himself a 9/10 for SQL knowledge. He has the same years exp as the first candidate, but no nearly the education. Hmmmmm... something doesn't smell right here.These two candidates come as stark contrast to each other. Both have Advanced Degress, hers is technology related, his is an MBA, both have BS in CS. He has no other education since his MBA, she completed 5 Microsoft courses in 2010, 3 more in 2011, and 2 this year alone.... blows me a way. My feeling from the two resumes is that she lives for her work. He lives for... something else.. don't know. His resume doesn't smell right to me. I go with the first instinct.Hows that? Do I pass? Can I have a cookie now? Please? :-D[/quote]I hold alphabet soup after a name the same as I do for "experience". I don't use it as a measure to figure out whether I want to interview someone or not. Two reasons."Book Smarts" are a whole lot different than actually doing something. A lot of certs (except the MCM cert which has a practical exam) can be achieved by rote memorization in a short amount of time.The other reason is that people just don't retain what they've been taught. One of the people we interviewed for a lead developer position claimed to have a Masters in Mathematics which was perfect because we were working with a lot of binary math and base conversions. He lied though. I verified that he actually had a Phd in Mathematics. I guess I understand trying to avoid the "over qualified" problem. As a part of my short interview with him (it lasted until I found out my boss hired him and not sure why my boss wanted me to interview him if he'd already been hired), I asked him to convert 14 Base 16 to Base 10. This is something that anyone with a degree in mathematics should be able to quickly do in their head. He told me he'd need a piece of paper and some time to figure it out.It only took him 3 months to crash and burn both as a leader and as a developer.Like I said, be careful of taking too much stock in whether or not people have alphabet soup after their name... especially in this business.Fri, 05 Oct 2012 10:39:15 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote]So, pre interview, what are you using to measure whether you'll even bother sitting the candidate in front of you?[/quote]Other than the option for a phone screen, I use what I call my BS meter... or, "The smell test"One of the candidates we're going to interview has 5 MS Certifications for 2008 related things including DBA stuff. I got her Transcript from microsoft to verify. The language in her resume was not super "high-brow" telling me how she single-handedly solved the problems of the world. That kind of stuff.Easily verifiable stuff like a Masters in Computer Science and Network Infrastructure, yadda yadda... These things tell me she's the real deal without having to speak a word. Now, whether she is able to apply it or not, that's another thing. Turns out she's "Linked" to a former colleague of mine via Linked'In... so I reached out and got a favorable reply. Nothing detailed, just a quick opinion thing. Her resume was very casual and almost humble.A candidate I turned down was tripping my BS meter all over the place... His resume was filled with "solely responsible", "sole collaborator on a 2 person team". Lots of stuff about how he saved the world. 4 previous jobs listed, 2 were for short terms. The language of the resume was extremely high in the confidence meter. Plus he rated himself a 9/10 for SQL knowledge. He has the same years exp as the first candidate, but no nearly the education. Hmmmmm... something doesn't smell right here.These two candidates come as stark contrast to each other. Both have Advanced Degress, hers is technology related, his is an MBA, both have BS in CS. He has no other education since his MBA, she completed 5 Microsoft courses in 2010, 3 more in 2011, and 2 this year alone.... blows me a way. My feeling from the two resumes is that she lives for her work. He lives for... something else.. don't know. His resume doesn't smell right to me. I go with the first instinct.Hows that? Do I pass? Can I have a cookie now? Please? :-DFri, 05 Oct 2012 09:50:49 GMTCptCrusty1http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]A caveat to this, Sir Moden, is that someone could actually have 10 years exp, but the question is the quality/type of exp they have.[/quote]That's precisely the point I was trying to make about "experience". Years served is not necessarily a good indication of knowlege or skill.[/quote]So, pre interview, what are you using to measure whether you'll even bother sitting the candidate in front of you?Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:43:07 GMTPerry Whittlehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]Sir Moden[/quote]:-D he should defo get a pork chop in the boat for that oneFri, 05 Oct 2012 08:39:55 GMTPerry Whittlehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]CptCrusty1 (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]A caveat to this, Sir Moden, is that someone could actually have 10 years exp, but the question is the quality/type of exp they have.[/quote]That's precisely the point I was trying to make about "experience". Years served is not necessarily a good indication of knowlege or skill.Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:31:25 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Abu Dina (10/5/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]I inform each candidate that I'm going to start out with easy questions to break the ice and relaxe a bit. When I asked this guy how to get the current date and time using T-SQL, his answer was "I don't know. [i]They [/i]always used the GUI for that."[/quote]Can you give an example of a "tough" question?[/quote]Sure. How about 4... actually, these aren't "tough" questions for a good Systems DBA.1. Why isn't the date/time in a log backup filename a good indication as to whether or not the log file can be used as part of a point-in-ime restore using the most recent full backup as the start of the restore?2. What is the required LSN overlap of a log file backup in relation to the LSNs of the recent full backup for a log file backup file to be considered for a point-in-time restore?3. What impact will the bulk logged recovery mode have on point-in-time restores?4. How can you tell if a log file backup was taken while the database was in the bulk logged recovery mode before you start the restore?For SQL Developers, the "tough" questions that none of the candidates that I've ever interviewed have gotten right is...1. How do you count from to 100 in a set-based fashion? (Most of them hadn't even heard the term "Set Based" before).2. Explain how to use a Numbers or Tally Table to replace certain types of loops. (None of them had heard of either).3. Why isn't the conversion of a Cursor to a Temp Table/While Loop an acceptable substitute for the Cursor?4. How do you view the "Actual Execution Plan"?And, no... I'm not going to post the answers. :-PFri, 05 Oct 2012 08:27:43 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote]These people, although they say they had 10 years exp obviously didn't, they probably worked a service desk for a couple of years and picked up tidbits off the DBA and are now just trying to blag their way in your front door ;-)Unluckily for them you weeded them out, just because they claim to have 10 or 6 years doesn't mean they have.[/quote]A caveat to this, Sir Moden, is that someone could [i]actually have 10 years exp[/i], but the question is the quality/type of exp they have. They might have worked in a position as a Junior DBA/Junior letter opener; however, it their role was limited and they never furthered their own exp. then their experience is limited to the fragmented world they live in. I like Car analogies so here's one. Any one can drive the Civilian Hummer V1. But unless you push the boundaries, you don't know know the capacity/capabilities/limitations of the equipment. An Example is the Soccer Mom who buys the Hummer (original Version), or the business guy that dresses it up in Brush Guards and fog lights, using it as a daily commuter. For me, 15 years military exp. I drove the Schlitz out of the original version of the Hummer. I even drove one off a cliff. (that was fun... LOL) and through 4 feet of water. The civilian version is exactly the same, just nicer seats and better paint... I could have so much fun with it because [i]I KNOW[/i] the capabilities of the equipment. Soccer Mom/Business Man might have 10 years exp., but its not the same level as mine... Make sense?I ran into this with an Access developer saying he was an expert. I ended the interview after 10 minutes becuase his 10 years experience was running apps....Fri, 05 Oct 2012 07:56:10 GMTCptCrusty1http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspxPosers who have recently taken a crash course on SQL Server or memorized answers to questions have trouble putting what little they do know in context. On those occasions where I've participated in an interview, I typically ask open ended questions, let the candidate do most of the talking, and then I'll ask followup questions based on their reply. For example: [quote]Describe the best backup and recovery implementation you've ever worked with, and tell me how you would improve upon it even further.[/quote][quote]A monthly report that typically runs in under a minute has been running for more than 1/2 hour, tell me how you would identify the problem and resolve it.[/quote][quote]What are some database design patterns that can cause index fragmentation, and then describe how you would resolve it.[/quote][quote]What is contained in TEMPDB, and how would you go about diagnosing and resolving a TEMPDB that is consuming too much disk space?[/quote]Fri, 05 Oct 2012 07:40:50 GMTEric M Russellhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]I inform each candidate that I'm going to start out with easy questions to break the ice and relaxe a bit. When I asked this guy how to get the current date and time using T-SQL, his answer was "I don't know. [i]They [/i]always used the GUI for that."[/quote]Can you give an example of a "tough" question?Fri, 05 Oct 2012 07:00:29 GMTAbu Dinahttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1349676-146-1.aspx[quote][b]Jeff Moden (10/5/2012)[/b][hr]If I hadn't actually been through it, I'd absolutely agree. But my personal experience with conducting interviews has been quite the opposite. For example, one fellow (SQL Developer candidate) claimed 10 years of experience in both Oracle and SQL Server and further claimed, on the resume, to be a "9 out of 10 in both". I inform each candidate that I'm going to start out with easy questions to break the ice and relaxe a bit. When I asked this guy how to get the current date and time using T-SQL, his answer was "I don't know. [i]They [/i]always used the GUI for that."In the most recent round of hiring at my previous company, we interviewed 6 people that claimed to be DBAs. All of them fit the category of "7 to 10 years" of experience according to their resumes. 5 of them didn't know you could backup the log file. Of those 5, 4 of them didn't know anything about index maintenance never mind index fragmentation, 1 of them had never done a backup, and none of the 5 had ever done a restore. The one who had some actual knowledge of what a System DBA actually does didn't know the differences between clustered and non-clustered indexes but did know that one of them "lived in the data" although he couldn't remember which one. Imagine the fun there when we got into things like "security".[/quote]Hmm, the obvious issue here is that you can put whatever you like on a CV (I was a rocket scientist for NASA). These people, although they say they had 10 years exp obviously didn't, they probably worked a service desk for a couple of years and picked up tidbits off the DBA and are now just trying to blag their way in your front door ;-)Unluckily for them you weeded them out, just because they claim to have 10 or 6 years doesn't mean they have.I once worked in a company where they employed a pensions administrator, it wasn't until he got in the door at his desk that it was apparent he didn't have a clue, he got marched offsite after 2 days :-DIncidentally, If you have an oracle DBA trying to blag their way into a SQL DBA post and they don't have the exp they claim, they may not know that you can backup the log as oracle works completely differently in that respect.I still think that someone who has the many years exp and can back it up ;-) is going to be a sure fire winnerFri, 05 Oct 2012 06:52:34 GMTPerry Whittle