March 21, 2016 at 10:02 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item The Younger Generation
March 21, 2016 at 11:03 pm
I totally agree with you. I'm not young anymore, but still green at DBA. Your topic really brings me a new look at DB. Thanks.
March 22, 2016 at 1:39 am
I think that there is a real issue across IT as less and less students are going through the more technical IT education and more are going through a business IT education. On one hand we might think that this is a good thing as we are more likely to have IT professionals focused on delivery of real business needs. On the other hand we are less likely to have IT professionals able to deliver those business needs. I would argue that it would be easier to guide the more technically trained and able to produce what business' demand than to enable those trained to be business focused to deliver a technically competent solution.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
March 22, 2016 at 2:50 am
I know what you are talking about.
Humanity's natural tendency to protect and keep children in particular safe in a strange way seems to lead to arrogance and ignorance. I think this is a problem for all disciplines but particularly technical disciplines. We don't generally grow up in the kind of environments of our forefathers that focused the mind on responsibility and competence where the smallest thing was incredibly important. This only seems to be marching on with each successive generation.
We are generally less likely than our ancestors to have been left at home unattended. We are less likely to have had to find our own way to school.
Edgar Codd was a fully fledged pilot that had fought in the Second World War by the time he was 25 !!
He flew Sunderlands - flying boats - they had a small machine shop in them so you could do repairs while you are flying!
That there is going to breed a bit of solid resolve and responsibility and focus on what is truly important.
I think the trick is to try and step outside of your frame of reference as often as possible and try and see what the true value is in your work. Question everything but try not to be disrespectful. Likewise try to encourage the same in others especially the next generation but gracefully surrender things to youth should it be the right thing to do.
Its just the way of the world it need not be the way of you or me
March 22, 2016 at 4:53 am
I'm 23, and "fell into" the SQL world by pure accident 6 years ago. I've got a lot of "techy" friends who I've watched go through University and develop unrealistic aims of where they want to be. I'd say 90% of them were aiming to be games developers, web designers etc. I think one problem is that young people want the cool, fun careers, without considering market saturation or future career progression. (School doesn't gear you up for that here though - or rather, neither my school or uni did.)
Supposedly, we should be seeing more and more programmers, developers and IT professionals in my generation as we've had exposure to technology from a younger age. I know I was learning HTML/CSS at 9, and PHP by 12 - and I was by no means from a privileged family, so it was entirely self-taught. My friends 6 year old daughter is learning to code at school. As a young person, I felt as though IT careers were sold as the "winning career choice" of our generation. I can't count how many times I've heard "there's a lot of money in IT!" A lot of young people now carry out IT degrees without thinking, "Is this my calling?" As a result, the post-grad market is saturated with non-talented graduates (and some very talented ones).
I can't say I have ever met someone my age who has said "You know what I'd *love* to do? Work with databases." From what I've seen, people tend to fall into DBA careers rather than seek them out, so I think this is why we generally see older enthusiasts.
March 22, 2016 at 5:07 am
tindog (3/22/2016)
I can't say I have ever met someone my age who has said "You know what I'd *love* to do? Work with databases." From what I've seen, people tend to fall into DBA careers rather than seek them out, so I think this is why we generally see older enthusiasts.
Exactly. This is my experience too. It's just not an attractive field, even though (in my experience) the salaries are among the best in IT at the moment.
March 22, 2016 at 5:28 am
I call myself an accidental dev because I ended up falling into a business intelligence role mainly through passion and not through any in-depth technical knowledge. Yes, I can write T-SQL, but indexes... umm... what are indexes?
Something that I would love to see would be a basic roadmap of skills. Something that highlights what entry level DBAs should know, what mid-level DBAs should know and what senior DBAs should know. I'd also like to see the same thing applied to the BI portions of SQL Server as well, such as data warehousing, SSAS, and SSRS.
I think one thing that really hinders skill development is that there really isn't a clear path defined. Yes, there are the Microsoft certifications, but do those match what the industry considers best practice. That was a serious question as I haven't taken the exams yet.
March 22, 2016 at 5:32 am
Beatrix Kiddo (3/22/2016)
tindog (3/22/2016)
I can't say I have ever met someone my age who has said "You know what I'd *love* to do? Work with databases." From what I've seen, people tend to fall into DBA careers rather than seek them out, so I think this is why we generally see older enthusiasts.
Exactly. This is my experience too. It's just not an attractive field, even though (in my experience) the salaries are among the best in IT at the moment.
Agreed. Until you get into it and see how addictive it is! I also noticed that in my area, it really is an employees market in this career choice (perhaps explains for the higher salaries).
March 22, 2016 at 5:38 am
JesseBizInt (3/22/2016)
I call myself an accidental dev because I ended up falling into a business intelligence role mainly through passion and not through any in-depth technical knowledge. Yes, I can write T-SQL, but indexes... umm... what are indexes?Something that I would love to see would be a basic roadmap of skills. Something that highlights what entry level DBAs should know, what mid-level DBAs should know and what senior DBAs should know. I'd also like to see the same thing applied to the BI portions of SQL Server as well, such as data warehousing, SSAS, and SSRS.
I think one thing that really hinders skill development is that there really isn't a clear path defined. Yes, there are the Microsoft certifications, but do those match what the industry considers best practice. That was a serious question as I haven't taken the exams yet.
Some of the stuff in the exams you will never touch, some of it you will use on an almost daily basis. Some of the techniques your boss will scold you for using, some of them s/he will love. It really depends on the path you choose, company practice/culture, the projects you're assigned to...clear as mud, but I think the exams do give you a solid basis for proving your technical knowledge, plus they give you a way deeper insight into the world of SQL server.
There's a few seniors/managers on here who sometimes give insight into what they look for in a DBA - but opinions seem to differ slightly for each level (junior, mid, senior).
March 22, 2016 at 6:08 am
JesseBizInt (3/22/2016)
Something that I would love to see would be a basic roadmap of skills. Something that highlights what entry level DBAs should know, what mid-level DBAs should know and what senior DBAs should know
Yes, this would be really helpful. Everybody interprets the roles so differently. (I've been at DBA interviews where they're clearly looking for a developer, for example. They didn't give a damn about recovery strategy/performance/high availability/indexes, they purely wanted to fire off questions about T-SQL, cursors, and stuff like that.) And as for the MCSA exams!
March 22, 2016 at 6:19 am
We host a "Student to IT Pro" seminar for college students here in Orlando once a year. It's easy to forget that from the outside of IT it all looks like "computer jobs". For a student digging in and trying to match their perceived interest/strengths to a job title it's not easy to figure out. More than that, if you want to play the odds on having the most opportunities it's hard to argue with being a developer of some kind. So even as the new kids sign up for IT, we're still stuck with the uncertain/undefined path to becoming a DBA.
I don't feel like schools do a good job of explaining what we do, or comparing it to what other professions do. To be fair, not sure we do either. I try to get my kids interested and it's tough to say it in a way that is intriguing to them. The closest I've come is saying "I solve puzzles all day".
March 22, 2016 at 6:31 am
Thing is, all organisations can have completely different business requirements, so setting a basic "what you should know by X" is difficult for anyone to do as it's such a varied area, there is no black and white.
It's important to take initiative and responsibility for your own career progression. For example, I'd like to move towards my line managers level one day. So I'm looking and seeing what he does that I don't/can't do and focussing on improving myself in those areas, e.g SSAS skills. I'm looking at senior developers on these forums, finding their blogs and penning what I need and would like to know next.
I think as long as you dedicate some time specifically to progression, you'll get where you want. And there's no harm in calling an interviewer/recruitment consultant prior to applying and asking for a breakdown of roles and responsibilities (assuming it's not on the advert).
March 22, 2016 at 6:34 am
Andy Warren (3/22/2016)
I don't feel like schools do a good job of explaining what we do, or comparing it to what other professions do.
I agree with your thoughts here. My relational databases module was very much 'AdventureWorks' style, and the module itself was confusing to many. In fact, they ended up replacing it with a statistical data analysis module as it was unpopular and student scores were so low.
March 22, 2016 at 6:40 am
Thanks for the reply. It's a shame stuff can't be more standardized, at least, from the managers perspective of what each level of DBA should know. I spend quite a bit of time jumping from one blog to another to try and figure out what I need to be learning next, but when you don't know what you don't know it is quite difficult to round out the edges of your knowledge. At least I am lucky enough to have a boss that encourages me to blog, interact with user groups, and get involved in the community via PASS and social media so I catch little tidbits here and there.
I should really sit down and make a plan for learning this stuff at a more in-depth level.
March 22, 2016 at 6:47 am
JesseBizInt (3/22/2016)
Thanks for the reply. It's a shame stuff can't be more standardized, at least, from the managers perspective of what each level of DBA should know. I spend quite a bit of time jumping from one blog to another to try and figure out what I need to be learning next, but when you don't know what you don't know it is quite difficult to round out the edges of your knowledge. At least I am lucky enough to have a boss that encourages me to blog, interact with user groups, and get involved in the community via PASS and social media so I catch little tidbits here and there.I should really sit down and make a plan for learning this stuff at a more in-depth level.
I agree, and I think it does make everything a bit more daunting, especially when you're trying to decide whether to go down DBA/Analyst/developer routes. It sounds like you've got the motivation to learn, and a great boss - do you ever get the opportunity to pick their brains? I've had managers before who have offered valuable direction (and then some who would rather I sat down and stopped asking questions...), so it might be worth asking their advice 🙂
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